Comments on Existence is Wonderful: On Longevity, Reality, and Critical Thinking

> I do quite enjoy vampire lore. . . > in pa...

2009-09-10T12:31:42.462-07:00

> I do quite enjoy vampire lore. . .
> in part because of exactly what I
> mentioned re. fantasy novels about
> long-lived characters.

And Elves, of course. Let's not forget about Elves! ;->

_The Lord of the Rings_ is, among other things, a meditation on the subjects of death and immortality.

"Tell me, stranger: life is -- why therefore should not life be lengthened for a while? What are ten or twenty or fifty thousand years in the history of life? ... There is naught that is wonderful about the matter... Life is wonderful, ay, but that it should be a little lengthened is not wonderful. Nature hath her animating spirit as well as man, who is Nature's child, and he who can find that spirit, and let it breathe upon him, shall live with her life. He shall not live eternally, for Nature is not eternal; and she herself must die, even as the nature of the moon has died... But when shall she die? Not yet, I ween, and while she lives, so shall he who hath all her secret live with her."

"Ah, how little knowledge does a man acquire in his life. He gathereth it up like water, but like water it runneth through his fingers, and yet, if his hands be but wet as though with dew, behold a generation of fools call out, 'See, he is a wise man!'"

-- Ayesha, She-who-must-be-obeyed,
to L. Horace Holly
in H. Rider Haggard's _She_
(an acknowledged influence on
Tolkien).

> Every now and then, I receive a > random e...

2009-09-10T12:22:58.108-07:00

> Every now and then, I receive a
> random e-mail. . . along the lines of,
> "Hi!. . . Can you tell me how I can
> live forever?"

You could more-or-less straight-facedly suggested browsing among the following:

_Fantastic Voyage: Live Long Enough to Live Forever_
by Ray Kurzweil, Terry Grossman (2004)
http://www.amazon.com/Fantastic-Voyage-Live-Enough-Forever/dp/0452286670/

and its sequel

_Transcend: Nine Steps to Living Well Forever_
by Ray Kurzweil Ph.D., Terry Grossman M.D. (2009)
http://www.amazon.com/Transcend-Nine-Steps-Living-Forever/dp/B002OBTW98/

For a longer perspective on this sort of thing, you could also mention

_Life Extension: A Practical Scientific Approach_
by Durk Pearson and Sandy Shaw (1982)
http://www.amazon.com/Life-Extension-Practical-Scientific-Approach/dp/0446387355/

and books by the late Roy L. Walford (participant in the Biosphere 2 experiment, who expected to last longer than I'm afraid he in fact ended up doing), e.g.,
_The 120-Year Diet: How To Double Your Vital Years_
by Roy L. Walford M.D. (1991)
http://www.amazon.com/One-Hundred-Twenty-Year-Diet/dp/0671744747/

Note that I do not necessarily endorse any of these authors' views. ;->

Are there philosopher vampires? What I find frustr...

2009-09-05T23:22:00.436-07:00

Are there philosopher vampires? What I find frustrating about this aspect of horror (but I've had only limited exposure to the genre) is that mostly vampires show only stunted self-awareness. I admit "personal and intellectual growth" sounds a bit, let's say, awkward in this context but that's exactly what I'm missing in these centuries-old creatures. I understand that the relentlessly cyclical nature of their existence is part and parcel of the myth; still it would be interesting to see vampires which show that they've used their time to read and reflect.

When I first read that Ray Kurzweil thought of &qu...

2009-09-05T23:06:37.415-07:00

When I first read that Ray Kurzweil thought of "potentially re-animating his dead father from a combination of molecules and memories" I was very moved. Ray's public image is that of a "cold technocrat", but here he reveals a trauma (the death of his father) which is apparently at the heart of his endeavours. The actual feasibility of his wish is a different matter, though. Who would have thought: Ray Kurzweil, the melancholic dreamer!

Which brings us back to minhaj's first comment re: "Dreaming and wishing" :-)

Matthew: Regardless of whatever my present ...

2009-09-04T21:11:16.293-07:00

Matthew: Regardless of whatever my present conception might be of the value of the expression "escape velocity" (which I won't get into here as I have a headache frankly and don't feel like it), I still have yet to see de Grey express an attitude such as the one I have often seen from Kurzweil.

But that is the last thing that will be said in this post's comments on the subject of those two individuals here in particular -- I think it derails the discussion to get off on tangents about particular individuals who were not even mentioned in my post.

As far as I can google, both Kurzweil and DeGrey t...

2009-09-04T16:41:26.597-07:00

As far as I can google, both Kurzweil and DeGrey think reaching "escape velocity" is possible:

De Grey responds:

The “escape velocity” concept is based not on faith but on the history of technology, in which incremental refinements of an initial breakthrough reliably occur at, if anything, an accelerating rate rather than encountering diminishing returns, subject only to sustained public enthusiasm for further progress (which faded with, e.g., space travel but seems dependable in respect of postponing aging).

from:
http://blog.infeasible.org/2009/01/28/refuting-the-longevity-escape-velocity.aspx

abfh: Ha, that is awesome! LOL, wow, yes, I...

2009-09-03T22:23:53.722-07:00

abfh: Ha, that is awesome! LOL, wow, yes, I do appreciate that link...

Matthew: No, no drama here. This is a Dra...

2009-09-03T22:20:22.055-07:00

Matthew:

No, no drama here. This is a Drama Free Zone; I can't abide drama or gossip in the least.

That said, yes, I do think Kurzweil is full of it when he goes on about things like potentially re-animating his dead father from a combination of molecules and memories, though. He's invented some cool gadgets but I think he goes out of his actual expertise context way too often.

But I'm not sure why you'd class his and de Grey's assertions in the same category. I have tremendous respect for de Grey's efforts to promote and organize actual longevity research. There is actual laboratory work being done as a result of SENS initiatives, etc. It's not just talking about stuff, or claiming anything is "inevitable". And as far as I know, Aubrey doesn't go around claiming to have "the path to immortality" at all...he recognizes that ANY medical advancement in biogerontology is going to take a lot of hard work, and doesn't go around peddling a line of personal supplements or anything like that.

"In other words, if you're thinking in te...

2009-09-03T17:49:55.521-07:00

"In other words, if you're thinking in terms of "living forever", you're doing it wrong."

So you think Ray Kurzweil and Aubrey DeGrey are full of it? Sounds like some futurist/transhumanist/life extensionist drama in the making. ;-)

Anne, I bet you'd enjoy the fan video where
2009-09-03T14:10:36.965-07:00
Anne, I bet you'd enjoy the fan video where Buffy dusts Edward Cullen -- it's hilarious.

"And acknowledging that has nothing to do ...

2009-09-02T20:07:59.826-07:00
"And acknowledging that has nothing to do with a disdain for imagination, and everything to do with keeping imaginative speculation and practical action in their appropriate contexts where they can actually have useful, enriching effects rather than confounding ones."

I agree with that. I think this distinction is important. Sometimes I do confuse the wanting with the doing. by the way I am writing my first novel! Sometimes wishing takes me so far away from the reality that I dont want to come back to earth and actually do the boring stuff that will lead to the dream coming true. I have been on Oprah, on Larry King and every night I am on Book TV and I talk with Charlie Rose almost daily about my best selling novel (all this happens in my imagination). I need to finish it first.

I think your comment should have been a blog as you touched on the link between fiction and the world of science. Also the the topic of placing imagination and current practical science in context deserves more attention.

I am curious about a cyborg in an antique store! When is the book coming out? Will you throw a webcam futuristic party so we can all celebrate?

All that said, I have no problem saying that of co...

2009-09-02T09:43:48.080-07:00
All that said, I have no problem saying that of course I (like pretty much everyone else on the planet who isn't suicidally depressed) would rather be alive and healthy than dead or sick and dying. I hope I will still be saying the same thing when I'm a hundred years old, and I would be thrilled to bits if the same ended up being true of my grandparents.

But I am not going to sit here and work my brain up into a frenzy of unproductive loops over things I have absolutely no control over, such as what might happen to any sentient life at the heat death of the universe. I would need to study a lot more physics to even feel justified in pondering that situation with any seriousness. Of course I've sat and fantasized about jumping through "wormholes"...what nerd hasn't...but I don't think that sort of fantasy needs to be called something other than fantasy in order for it to be fun to consider in one's mind.

I think maybe part of what I find problematic about certain sub-cultural trends (note that I am NOT making a blanket statement about "everyone" in any given group here, individuals are individuals no matter what their friends are doing) is in the way fantasy-as-fantasy is actively disdained. I've seen comment threads in various places wherein some folks' attitudes seem to include the notion that science fiction can't just be science fiction anymore, it has to be tied to some kind of massively-scaled military project in order to be a worthwhile endeavor.

Personally I just don't understand that. I don't see why "science fiction" or even "fantasy" tends to get perceived as an insult by some people...as a longtime fan of both these genres (and the places where they intersect), this strikes me as much more of a failure of imagination than whatever it is I'm personally guilty of by figuring real-world efforts ought to consider the practical realities of the real world. (Honestly a lot of the reactions I get remind me of some of those I've gotten from certain religious believers who presume that my life must be gray and empty just because I'm an atheist!)

Many current scientists and engineers were inspired by sf/f (myself included -- you can bet that Star Trek among other fictions had an influence over my decision to go into electrical engineering!), and I think that's a good thing! If someone is inspired by a story or highly ambitious mythical idea and they use that as the fuel for their career or study or volunteer work or whatnot, that's wonderful! Yay for imagination!

But I don't see any need to pretend that going on about "living forever" is likely to have any actual impact on improving healthcare. People can use whatever inspirations they want in their heads, but it's important not to confuse inspirations with scientific ideas or with actually-practical plans for the future.

This doesn't mean that nobody's inspiration-ideas will ever actually come to fruition -- I mean, people wrote about trips to the Moon long before any humans actually went there, and I don't doubt for a minute that the imagery generated by tales like From The Earth to the Moon had a direct influence on actual human endeavors.

I just think that people who presently think they have the power to predict certain extreme outcomes -- as in, people who would actually claim to "know how to live forever", are deluding themselves. And acknowledging that has nothing to do with a disdain for imagination, and everything to do with keeping imaginative speculation and practical action in their appropriate contexts where they can actually have useful, enriching effects rather than confounding ones.

If that makes any sense.

Minhaj: Yes, you were indeed one of the &q...

2009-09-02T09:43:23.180-07:00
Minhaj:

Yes, you were indeed one of the "random e-mailers" but certainly not the only one who has asked me something along the lines of "how can I live forever?" So this post was definitely not directed at you personally and you alone; I figured that if multiple people were asking me questions like that, I might as well put something up in public to clarify my views a bit more on matters pertaining to these questions.

And re. "Interview with the Vampire": ha, possibly that was an inspiration for the author I encountered, though I've never seen that movie (or read the Anne Rice book on which it was based) myself.

[Somewhat tangentially, I do quite enjoy vampire lore (am a huge "Buffy" fan -- the series, not the movie), though, in part because of exactly what I mentioned re. fantasy novels about long-lived characters. It is always fascinating to see how vampire characters deal with things like changes in culture and technology over time, and how the particular vampires certain authors come up with tend to reflect the time and environment in which the stories were written.]

And re. my favorite Star Trek character being Spock: yes, he would be my favorite out of the Original Series crew. Guilty as charged. :P But one reason I think he is a great character is because despite his (and his species') devotion to logic, he is constantly having to deal with an undercurrent of very strong emotion. And Vulcan culture is essentially designed around doing this -- their various and sometimes violent "rituals" have to exist in order to prevent their civilization from essentially exploding.

Also, I would have to disagree about "not getting excited over the process". Life, after all IS a process. All of us spend the vast majority of our time in process. And I don't think this is a bad thing, nor do I find it boring or mundane. I am attempting to write my first science fiction/fantasy novel at the moment (a young-adult story about a girl with a cyborg mother, an antiques-dealer father, and a peculiar talent for getting lost) and while the idea of eventually getting published and hence becoming an actual author myself is certainly cool to think about, it is not the ONLY or even the main reason I am working on this.

The process of coming up with original characters (and not having them all be just like me!) is a huge challenge and a really interesting one at that. The research is interesting -- because of the protagonist's father's occupation, I actually went out to a bunch of antique stores and looked around and took pictures so I would be able to realistically describe certain things in the story.

You know, part of me wonders if maybe the recurring argument I seem to end up in with people (who for some reason perceive me, apparently, as being kind of plodding and unimaginative) stems from the very fact that I am extremely "process-oriented". As a kid people used to tell me it was weird that I read the same books over and over again and I never understood this, but now I wonder if maybe they just couldn't see the appeal when obviously I "already knew what was going to happen".

For me that's kind of not the point...I mean I don't like being given spoilers to mystery stories or anything because it's fun to figure things out the first time through, but I don't consider the story "used up" after that. Some people's writing is just enjoyable to read, and there are always different details to notice each time through, as well as different angles from which to look at things based on one's own ever-growing body of life experience.

Anne wrote: "I once encountered a person who ...

2009-09-01T22:59:34.746-07:00
Anne wrote: "I once encountered a person who claimed to know a "real-life immortal", that of course I could learn about only through buying and reading his upcoming book about this person (who had apparently trusted him, the author, with this 'special knowledge')."

haha I think the movie 'Interview with a Vampire' may have inspired this author.

Dreaming and wishing are great things and they inspire us. You dont make pizza because its the logical thing to do. You make pizza because you love melted cheese. You love the freshness, the green pepper and onions. Sure there is the logical process of baking it at a certain tempreature...but lets not get over excited over the process. Its always about the pizza. I understand that when it comes to expectations for perfect health we have to compromise with existing realities, but it will be our hopes, dreams and wishes that will define what this reality can be. I have a feeling that Anne's favorite Star Trek character is Spock.

Minhaj (Random E-mailer and asker of the question 'how can I live forever?')